Cerrem mod as told by Eddie.

Hosted by Marshall Founding Father G3SDW. Discuss JTM45, JTM50, JTM100, Bluesbreaker, Super Lead, Super Bass, 200W, 100W, 50W, 20W, Plexi Panels, Metal Panels, 4x12 straight, 4x12 slant, Pinstripe, Basketweave, Checkerboard, Park, Kitchen-Marshall and Narb

Postby BURN on Fri Jan 11, 2008 5:43 pm

I agree...they aint stock....Haven't heard a stock plexi or metal sound as his.

I have one of many boots of the band from '78....his tone at this gig sounds like a metal panel :lol:

But, It could of been a backline rental.
Last edited by BURN on Fri Jan 11, 2008 10:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
BURN
Squire
 
Posts: 851
Joined: Mon Jul 11, 2005 10:22 pm

Postby cholula69 on Fri Jan 11, 2008 6:02 pm

I don't know about the modified this and modified that, but like Hendrix, I have to say the majority of it is in the hands. Then there are also the issue of his pickups, he is purported to wind them himself.

There is also the famous story when VH opened for Ted Nugent, they traded amps for the concert, Nugent still sounded like Nugent and EVH sounded like EVH. The only photo documentation I have seen are the variacs pictured.

I think Peter Van Weelden worked on EVH's Marshalls and now he has a Gainland(?) pre-amp that sounds pretty darn close.
cholula69
Squire
 
Posts: 685
Joined: Sat Aug 13, 2005 5:42 pm
Location: Switzerland

Postby Thumbsmagee on Fri Jan 11, 2008 6:28 pm

I agree totally about his overall feel and tone, and I think a lot of that is fingertone, but I just saw him last month in Seattle and believe me...there is a big difference. It wasn't bad; you could tell in a sec EVH was playing, but his sound wasn't a pimple on the arse of his old tone. Did you listen to the clips??? It's right there in front of you...maybe not dialed in just right, but the overall "squishy" feel, the nature of the breakup, that signature high end chirp that sounds dirty but sweet and a little scratchy all at the same time...there's the pudding right there! The funny thing is one of clip was recorded with a JB and one was recorded with a WCR A2 Darkburst, and they both nail that vibe; granted the WCR, sounds closer, but c'mon...both these guys can most likely play circles around you and I...at least me, and I can play...they've got the technique down cold. Why do you think PUP makers are able to charge $180.00...which IMHO...is absurd! for a pup that supposedly sounds like EVH. B/C people have been going down the wrong path beating a dead horse trying to figure out how to do it, and no one has come close...and they think a "magical" pup is going to get them there. As far as sounding like a Metal Panel; in some ways I agree, and I think there's a good reason for it. Ed replaced the original OT and PT with Dagnalls from later model amps...around 73 I think. Patrick at Mercury Magnetics told me that they have the original OT and PT spec'd out...0100JM-SL OT and the P100JM-M PT...as I understand it, these are modeled after Trannys that came in early 70's metal panels. Plexi+2203 preamp+good technique+ PPIMV+ correct trannys+ PAF output A2 Humbucker+greenback/G12H30s+a few other little tricks=EVH tone...BTW, did you listen to the clips????? "He who has ears to hear..." :dumass:
Thumbsmagee
Page
 
Posts: 316
Joined: Fri Aug 17, 2007 6:08 am
Location: In the space between spaces

Postby cholula69 on Fri Jan 11, 2008 7:02 pm

No, I didn't listen to the clips, my wife is working right next to me and she doesn't like "all those distorted sounds" while she is working. he-he.

Anyway, the last time I saw EVH was during the 1984 tour, since then I gave up and with the new line up and became old in the meantime, ruining my ears along the way. Too many cranked amps and last calls!

Yes, you could probably play circles around me, the only thing I play now is usually finger picked country blues and I have never had the finger speed to shred.

It is probably fair to say it is not just one magic ticket to EVH tone but a sum of parts.
cholula69
Squire
 
Posts: 685
Joined: Sat Aug 13, 2005 5:42 pm
Location: Switzerland

Postby Thumbsmagee on Fri Jan 11, 2008 7:20 pm

My playing is nothing special; I still kinda see myself as a bass player who lost his way :lol: ; I was reffering to Mark and Ralle's playing on those clips; now those guys can definitely play and I'm sure you would leave me in the dust too. Sorry for the frustrated rants, but it seems that some people would rather buy into the hype of something that someone tells them is good or was or WAS NOT used by this or that person than use their ears and "Hear it for themselves". Kind of like the guys who can't really play, but pull out their fancy gear when their friends come over or rave about how great...or bad it is on Harmony Central when they've only played the 3 "ham-fisted" riffs they know on it and never got the volume past 3...much less used it w/ a band in a live setting. I honestly think the Forums are like a music version of "World of Warcraft" for some people. They have an identity on line, and people assume they know what they're talking about if they can speak the right lingo or regergitate what they heard other techs or musicians say about guitars, amps or what NOS tube will magically cure all your tonal ills. Just don't rock the boat or step out from the mainstream and no one will notice. I'm a techno-noob, and I joined the PP and Metro forums to learn and grow as a musician and refine my sound(s)...more than just ripping EVH, which truth be told, I don't play a whole lot... to something that's pleasing to me b/c there's people here who are already doing it...or are dang close...to achieving tonally what I've been looking for, and for EVH, these guys have it nailed. I'm blown away when someone tells another that something can't be done or that it's nonsense, when there are people already doing it! If someone tells me that stuffing the chassis of an amp full of broccoli and cauliflauer will improve your tone, and then posts a clip of this vegetable amp that has killer tone and shows the schematics and how to do it and others get similar results...then I've gotta take a step back and go wait a min...maybe there is something to this broccoli thing...I jest of course, but you get the picture. That little mini rant isn't directed at you brotha or anyone in particular; I've just been seeing alot of know-it-all regergetated nonsense that just doesn't add up when you plug in and put it to the test (in all honesty I've been guilty of that too at one point or another)...and then there's some "nonsense" that obviously does. The tone is out there!8)
Thumbsmagee
Page
 
Posts: 316
Joined: Fri Aug 17, 2007 6:08 am
Location: In the space between spaces

Postby BURN on Fri Jan 11, 2008 10:22 pm

Links don't work.
BURN
Squire
 
Posts: 851
Joined: Mon Jul 11, 2005 10:22 pm

Postby Baron Von Machinenmann on Fri Jan 11, 2008 10:37 pm

Thumbsmagee wrote:My playing is nothing special; I still kinda see myself as a bass player who lost his way :lol: ; I was reffering to Mark and Ralle's playing on those clips; now those guys can definitely play and I'm sure you would leave me in the dust too. Sorry for the frustrated rants, but it seems that some people would rather buy into the hype of something that someone tells them is good or was or WAS NOT used by this or that person than use their ears and "Hear it for themselves". Kind of like the guys who can't really play, but pull out their fancy gear when their friends come over or rave about how great...or bad it is on Harmony Central when they've only played the 3 "ham-fisted" riffs they know on it and never got the volume past 3...much less used it w/ a band in a live setting. I honestly think the Forums are like a music version of "World of Warcraft" for some people. They have an identity on line, and people assume they know what they're talking about if they can speak the right lingo or regergitate what they heard other techs or musicians say about guitars, amps or what NOS tube will magically cure all your tonal ills. Just don't rock the boat or step out from the mainstream and no one will notice. I'm a techno-noob, and I joined the PP and Metro forums to learn and grow as a musician and refine my sound(s)...more than just ripping EVH, which truth be told, I don't play a whole lot... to something that's pleasing to me b/c there's people here who are already doing it...or are dang close...to achieving tonally what I've been looking for, and for EVH, these guys have it nailed. I'm blown away when someone tells another that something can't be done or that it's nonsense, when there are people already doing it! If someone tells me that stuffing the chassis of an amp full of broccoli and cauliflauer will improve your tone, and then posts a clip of this vegetable amp that has killer tone and shows the schematics and how to do it and others get similar results...then I've gotta take a step back and go wait a min...maybe there is something to this broccoli thing...I jest of course, but you get the picture. That little mini rant isn't directed at you brotha or anyone in particular; I've just been seeing alot of know-it-all regergetated nonsense that just doesn't add up when you plug in and put it to the test (in all honesty I've been guilty of that too at one point or another)...and then there's some "nonsense" that obviously does. The tone is out there!8)


Decaf. :worry:
ImageImageImage

John Lennon/Jimi Hendrix/Jimmy Page Fan
Baron Von Machinenmann
Administrator of Mirth
 
Posts: 17324
Joined: Sat Mar 08, 2003 8:01 am
Location: Central, New York

Postby Thumbsmagee on Sat Jan 12, 2008 12:59 am

Burn,

Hmm,worked for me; if a pop-up asks you if yo want to close the window, click no. I'll repost em if they're still not working 8)


lol...ok Baron, perhaps a bit too much java 8) stepping off of my soapbox now...




.
Thumbsmagee
Page
 
Posts: 316
Joined: Fri Aug 17, 2007 6:08 am
Location: In the space between spaces

Postby Baron Von Machinenmann on Sat Jan 12, 2008 1:57 am

:cheers:
ImageImageImage

John Lennon/Jimi Hendrix/Jimmy Page Fan
Baron Von Machinenmann
Administrator of Mirth
 
Posts: 17324
Joined: Sat Mar 08, 2003 8:01 am
Location: Central, New York

Postby Joey on Mon Aug 18, 2008 6:23 am

Hey ThumbsMagee,

I agree with your recipe, "Plexi+2203 preamp+good technique+ PPIMV+ correct trannys+ PAF output A2 Humbucker+greenback/G12H30s+a few other little tricks=EVH tone"

Add a killer mic, and preamp.

I wonder how Ampeg VL 502, HiWatt Patridge 504, the newer Hammond, or Soldano trannies would compare to the VH tranny or a Mercury Magnetics.
Where can we see Cerrem's transformers?

Don't we want a little saturation?
That Cerrem resistor is about to go into my totally redesigned Hiwatt.

Good contributions Rockstah, thanks for your effort.
Joey
Peasant
 
Posts: 4
Joined: Mon May 05, 2003 7:01 am

Postby beaulieu on Mon Aug 18, 2008 11:28 am

Thumbsmagee wrote:No freakin way; that sounds like the usual Eddie B.S. Tell me, have you ever heard a stock Plexi...of any year that sounds anything like the tone from VH1-1984...crank the heck out of em all you want, I have, and they don't break up like that...period, no matter what you stick in front of them. Pat's tone is killer and his playing is superb, but there are elements of that early sound that just are not there. Honestly, I haven't heard anything even close...heck, my Peacemaker IMHO sound darn good, but not even close...and I've read the threads and tried a lot of stuff...a rediculous amount of tubes, wet/dry effects, clean boosts, ODs, speaker changes and it ain't happening. Now I don't have Ed's fingertone, but I don't sukc either, and I started thinking something's gotta give b/c I've tried just about everything and this just ain't happening. If it were as simple as an almost stock Marshall, a lot more people would be nailing this tone...and if an amp builder were coming to see an amp that was a big part of my sound that people had been trying to rip for 10-15 years, I'd show him something else just to throw him off. I'm sure the guy has an army of old marshalls that weren't modded for his signature tone...I think the "smoke and mirrors" thing works both ways. There's a forum member here...maybe he'll chime in... who played a Jose modded Marshall, soon after Jose died with Mark Cameron that was dead-on for early EVH. They've seen "the amp" and it was most definitely not stock...and not necessarily a Plexi in every respect. I've heard modded plexis..ala David Bray...where my PM is at right now... but the tone is more in the vein of a Trainwreck then in the ballpark of EVH...IMHO, that's the direction you head in when you start increasing the gain of the standard plexi preamp; excellent for what it is but different. I could care less what Ed was quoted as saying; I know what my ears tell me. The proof's in the pudding, as they say, and I've been listening to Plexis with bastardized PTP 2203 boards, cerrum mods and PPIMVs among other things...which are part of the equation, and they are far and away the closest thing I've ever heard. I agree that a lot of it is "smoke and mirrors"...i.e. cranking up his variac to 140v when he actually lowered it to around 95v... but IMHO a lot isn't or else a bunch of other people would be nailing that tone too w/ "unmodded" plexis and IMHO they aren't. Here you go; A/B these clips w/2203 pre's against clips of stock plexis and listen for yourself. 8) I know what circuit board and trannys are going in my PM and they ain't stock 1959 Plexi specs; I've been down that road and IMHO, "you can't get there from here"

Ben W.

http://www.soundclick.com/player/single ... i&newref=1

http://www.soundclick.com/player/single ... i&newref=1

You have to realize the producers had ALOT to do with that VH1 sound. I agree they had to have something "special" to work with but...take this into consideration. I have a 1969 plexi,a 1978 2204 and a 1991 2554 50 watt tube combo.These 3 amps are totally diffrent from one another but everytime I record them they all sound very very close to each other. It almost pisses me off :? Another thing if you listen the Ralle's clips he has a stock older Marshall 71 or before(i forget what year he has) and it sound scary close to old VH. Nothing special. I really thing if someone takes a properly "tuned" plexi (not modded) and echoplex,flanger,phaser both MXR, and the same tubes,viaraic and set it up the same as ED did.Also if you had a close pickup and guitar you will get scary close to EVH IF you have it in the hands,brain. I truly believe you could take EDs setup and if the player aint got it its not gunna sound like VH1.
Mark
69 "Real"Plexi 1992
73 1987
68 1987/86 build NOS parts
12000 series build NOS parts
2554 (Black)Jubilee
7 4x12 cabs left LOL
71LesPaul deluxe
2 Charvels
2 GSXR 1000's
2 PitBUlls (pets)
MXR pedals
NOS Amp parts(Marshall)
beaulieu
Squire
 
Posts: 740
Joined: Sun Jul 08, 2007 4:29 pm
Location: Western Md

Postby ampdude on Mon Aug 18, 2008 11:53 am

As it turns out, the original post of this thread is wrong. Ed didn't use the Cerrem resistor mod in the 70s and the only unreliable info about the Cerrem resistor mod is from the Dutch guitar tech who saw Ed's amp in the 90s. There are no photos of Ed using the Cerrem resistor mod that I'm aware of.


GP: How do you modify your amps?

EVH: Okay, I use a combination of two different kinds of amps. They’re both Marshalls, but one kind actually has less power than the other, which is boosted. I use them together. The ones that have less power have a giant capacitor in conjunction with the fuse; if anything happens, the fuse blows first. The capacitor has something to do with the computerized ignition system of a car. I can’t give you the exact specs, but it looks like a stick of dynamite, only fatter. What it does is suck juice. I hook it up to the fuse holder and the mains, and it lowers the voltage about ten volts so the amp lasts a little bit longer. It doesn’t really change the sound, but whatever I use, I use to the max. I just turn it all the way up. So this capacitor lowers the voltage and the amp lasts a little longer. I still have to retube them once a week. (Editor’s Note: This is not a recommended procedure for modifying amps and should not be attempted by anyone inexperienced in the field of electronics and amp modification.)



EVH: Well, in the studio I use my old Marshall, which gets a slightly different sound. Live I use new Marshalls, but I do little tricks to them too.

GP: Like overdriving them with a Variac?

EVH: Yeah. I don't even use fuses in my amps. See, I use a combination of two different amps. They're both Marshalls, but one of them is actually lower powered, and the other one is boosted. I use 'em together. One of them has this giant capacitor - I don't know what they're used for, but it sucks off ten volts. It doesn't really change the sound, but whatever I use, I use to the max. I just turn it all the way up. And a standard on-the-market amp won't last that long doing that. So I put this capacitor in there, which lowers it down to about 100. You know, a Marshall is under-rated. They're actually like 150 watts, even though they say they're a 100-watt amp. So I lower it about 10 volts, and it lasts a little longer. I still have to retube them once a week.


The capacitor that looks like a stick of dynamite that Ed is talking about in this 1979 Guitar Player interview is not a Cerrem resistor, it is a wax capacitor

Image

http://www.thevalvepage.com/radios/hmv/ ... waxcap.jpg that was used for the Jose master volume mod. When Ed says he uses two amps he means he is reamping. So his main Marshall was really a master volume modded Marshall that was used with a Variac set around 90 volts and it was reamped through a Jose load box into another Marshall. The gain you can get from this setup and a EQ boost is pretty substantial and that's where Ed's "Van Halen I" gain came from, a reamped master volume Marshall with some EQ and effect gain (flanger phase echoplex) thrown in.

There are photos of Ed using reamping in 1978 and photos of the Jose master volume mod at the back of his main Marshall in the Van Halen II studio photos.
Last edited by ampdude on Mon Aug 18, 2008 2:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
ampdude
Peasant
 
Posts: 43
Joined: Wed Dec 08, 2004 8:01 am
Location: Australia

Postby Dai on Mon Aug 18, 2008 12:30 pm

ampdude wrote:As it turns out, the original post of this thread is wrong. Ed didn't use the Cerrem resistor mod in the 70s and the only unreliable info about the Cerrem resistor mod is from the Dutch guitar tech who saw Ed's amp in the 90s. There are no photos of Ed using the Cerrem resistor mod that I'm aware of.


GP: How do you modify your amps?

EVH: Okay, I use a combination of two different kinds of amps. They’re both Marshalls, but one kind actually has less power than the other, which is boosted. I use them together. The ones that have less power have a giant capacitor in conjunction with the fuse; if anything happens, the fuse blows first. The capacitor has something to do with the computerized ignition system of a car. I can’t give you the exact specs, but it looks like a stick of dynamite, only fatter. What it does is suck juice. I hook it up to the fuse holder and the mains, and it lowers the voltage about ten volts so the amp lasts a little bit longer. It doesn’t really change the sound, but whatever I use, I use to the max. I just turn it all the way up. So this capacitor lowers the voltage and the amp lasts a little longer. I still have to retube them once a week. (Editor’s Note: This is not a recommended procedure for modifying amps and should not be attempted by anyone inexperienced in the field of electronics and amp modification.)



EVH: Well, in the studio I use my old Marshall, which gets a slightly different sound. Live I use new Marshalls, but I do little tricks to them too.

GP: Like overdriving them with a Variac?

EVH: Yeah. I don't even use fuses in my amps. See, I use a combination of two different amps. They're both Marshalls, but one of them is actually lower powered, and the other one is boosted. I use 'em together. One of them has this giant capacitor - I don't know what they're used for, but it vacuums off ten volts. It doesn't really change the sound, but whatever I use, I use to the max. I just turn it all the way up. And a standard on-the-market amp won't last that long doing that. So I put this capacitor in there, which lowers it down to about 100. You know, a Marshall is under-rated. They're actually like 150 watts, even though they say they're a 100-watt amp. So I lower it about 10 volts, and it lasts a little longer. I still have to retube them once a week.


The capacitor that looks like a stick of dynamite that Ed is talking about in this 1979 Guitar Player interview is not a Cerrem resistor, it is a wax capacitor http://www.thevalvepage.com/radios/hmv/ ... waxcap.jpg that was used for the Jose master volume mod. When Ed says he uses two amps he means he is reamping. So his main Marshall was really a master volume modded Marshall that was used with a Variac set around 90 volts and it was reamped through a Jose load box into another Marshall. The gain you can get from this setup and a EQ boost is pretty substantial and that's where Ed's "Van Halen I" gain came from, a reamped master volume Marshall with some EQ and effect gain (flanger phase echoplex) thrown in.

There are photos of Ed using reamping in 1978 and photos of the Jose master volume mod at the back of his main Marshall in the Van Halen II studio photos.


maybe but unless you have pictures or something you don't have definite proof
Dai
Baron
 
Posts: 3377
Joined: Fri Jun 15, 2001 7:01 am
Location: lying in the harmonic marshall filth

Postby ampdude on Mon Aug 18, 2008 2:52 pm

Try it and see what happens. A 2203 Marshall master volume reamped through a Plexi with effects (EQ, Echoplex etc) should do it.
As I said above there are no photos of Ed with a Cerrem resistor hanging out of his Marshall that I'm aware of.

Ed reamping in late 1977

Image


Reamping in Japan in 1978

Image

Ed's master volume on his number 1 plexi in the VHII studio photos.
There is no Cerrem resistor hanging out the back of the amp.

Image

Ed's master volume removed in later years.

Image
ampdude
Peasant
 
Posts: 43
Joined: Wed Dec 08, 2004 8:01 am
Location: Australia

Postby Dai on Mon Aug 18, 2008 3:31 pm

yeah, but

ampdude wrote:Try it and see what happens. A 2203 Marshall master volume reamped through a Plexi with effects (EQ, Echoplex etc) should do it. As I said above there are no photos of Ed with a Cerrem resistor hanging out of his Marshall that I'm aware of.

Ed reamping in late 1977

Image


is there a picture or reliable eyewitness account(s)? Say pictures clearly showing how they were hooked up as a "reamp" setup? Again, maybe that was such a setup but I'd like to see someone such as Donn Landee or whomever that was there and saw it in person confirm it. There doesn't seem to be complete agreement on this. For example, (I didn't buy the issue), but one of the more recent Ed interviews according to what I understand reported he didn't use a "reamp" setup on the first album, so who is right?

Reamping in Japan in 1978

Image


same thing. Is there something in the article where you can be definite he was "reamp"ing?

Ed's master volume on his number 1 plexi in the VHII studio photos.

Image

Ed's master volume removed in later years.

Image


again, yes there is a knob but can you go beyond saying, "some people think it was a master volume" to "absolutely as a matter of fact it was"? I think it could have been but some sources say it was a line out. So are there photos?
Dai
Baron
 
Posts: 3377
Joined: Fri Jun 15, 2001 7:01 am
Location: lying in the harmonic marshall filth

PreviousNext

Return to Marshall

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot] and 4 guests