Cerrem mod as told by Eddie.

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Postby Thumbsmagee on Mon Aug 18, 2008 3:31 pm

there's a thread over at the metro sight where Mark Cammeron lays the whole slaving/re-amping thing out really well. I have a hot-rodded plexi, and I've goofed around with a buddy's 2203...that ain't it either...I WAS DEAD WRONG...maybe for VHII, but not VHI, WACF-1984; the nature of the break-up is totally different. Ampdude's right about that wax cap too, and a lot of really knowledgable guys have said the same thing. I've tried it...albiet with amps that aren't really suited for it, but the nature of that squishy, scratchy...but clear distortion is there.Check out the Jose load box, and I'd recommend getting an old MXR 6 band EQ and a GE-10. Use the 6 band in front of the first amp and the GE-10 after the load box in front of the 2nd amp.8)
...just one more tweak and then I'll close this amp up for good.
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Postby ampdude on Mon Aug 18, 2008 3:50 pm

Aha! you want definite statements. Well you won't get them off Ed or Don Landee or whoever athough in Ed's quotes above he says he uses 2 amps (reamping) and describes the wax capacitor used for the Jose master volume mod that Mark Cameron saw. Mark Cameron saw the master volume in Ed's amp and Mark Cameron knows all about the reamping Ed did and the reamping and master volume can be seen in the photos above. Jose Arredondo was well known for amp master volume mods.

Ed's quotes are from very early interviews when the BS was at a minimum and he started BS'ing more as time went on.
Last edited by ampdude on Mon Aug 18, 2008 5:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Dai on Mon Aug 18, 2008 3:59 pm

ampdude wrote:Aha! you want definite statements. Well you won't get them off Ed or Don Landee or whoever.

Yes, Mark Cameron saw the master volume in Ed's amp and Mark Cameron knows all about the reamping Ed did and the reamping and master volume can be seen in the photos above.


well the pictures show that it appears it could be a reamping setup and master volume (for that knob) but not definite. You'd have to see clear pics of the wiring with the amps, and with his amp--the innards showing what's hooked to that knob.
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Postby ampdude on Mon Aug 18, 2008 4:47 pm

You can follow the leads from the Echoplex and the leads running underneath the Marshall in the 1977 photo above to realize that this is reamping. In the VHII studio photo Ed does not seem to be reamping and that's why VHII sounds a bit different to VH1. Also for VH1 the guitars were different with a stock Ibanez Destroyer and the Franky used on VH1 and a modified with different pickups Ibanez Destroyer and the Franky used on VHII. Same studio and same producer for VH1 and VHII so the studio recording techniques don't explain the differences bewteen VH1 and VHII but reamping and different guitars do explain the VH1 and VHII differences.
Of course no one plays like Ed except for Ed.
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Postby Derrick on Mon Aug 18, 2008 5:02 pm

Image

Wow, looks like the back panel came off of a late mid 70s or so cab... look at the square metal ID plate. Not original, now I'm no longer interested in VH.
Image
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Postby beaulieu on Mon Aug 18, 2008 10:30 pm

In the old interview when Ed said he used the big resistor he also stated he used a variac and cranked it UP to 140 volts! When in fact he actually used it down to 90! The only reason this mod is called a Cerrem mod is because someone asked about it once and Chris Cerrem explained what it was so then that guy goes and reposts what Chris said and titled it The Cerrem mod. Heck,The guy didnt even get right what Chris told him and quoted some stuff wrong. I doubt Ed ever used the resistor and if he ever did it was probally once! I bet you could give EVH a stock,well tuned/tweaked (not modded) plexi or 2 Let him use his guitar and his effects and there it would be. That awesome tone everyone is searching for. I have what I think is a fair question. Anyone that is trying to get that old VH1 sound. AFter you get it then what will you do with it?? This is a serious question that someone brought to my attention and wanted me to ask!!
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Postby Dai on Mon Aug 18, 2008 11:13 pm

ampdude wrote:You can follow the leads from the Echoplex and the leads running underneath the Marshall in the 1977 photo above to realize that this is reamping.


does the wiring appear clearly to you? If it does can you point out how exactly things are connected? The picture is too fuzzy even when enlarged for me to make out clearly. There's a black lead from the gtr. and a blk lead on the echoplex and one of the amp inputs. Also a grey lead which looks like it's going into a Marshall input.
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Postby ampdude on Tue Aug 19, 2008 6:10 am

Ed reamping in late 1977

Image


This photo is from 1977 right after Ed recorded Van Halen I.
Ed's main Marshall is on the floor with no logo. The black lead is going from the Echoplex to Ed's main Marshall. There is a grey lead running underneath Ed's main Marshall to the input of the Marshall stacked on top of it. That is reamping. The output of Ed's main Marshall fed into another Marshall and the Vox is done in the same way. The variac is for Ed's main Marshall. There is a Jose load box for all of the reamping but it's at the back and is not visible. Other guitarists like Tom Scholz and Allan Holdsworth were playing around with reamping in the 70s to get different sounds and master volume mods were happening in the 70s as well.

In the old interview when Ed said he used the big resistor he also stated he used a variac and cranked it UP to 140 volts! When in fact he actually used it down to 90! The only reason this mod is called a Cerrem mod is because someone asked about it once and Chris Cerrem explained what it was so then that guy goes and reposts what Chris said and titled it The Cerrem mod. Heck,The guy didnt even get right what Chris told him and quoted some stuff wrong. I doubt Ed ever used the resistor and if he ever did it was probally once! I bet you could give EVH a stock,well tuned/tweaked (not modded) plexi or 2 Let him use his guitar and his effects and there it would be. That awesome tone everyone is searching for. I have what I think is a fair question. Anyone that is trying to get that old VH1 sound. AFter you get it then what will you do with it?? This is a serious question that someone brought to my attention and wanted me to ask!!


In the old interview Ed never mentions a resistor, it was always a capacitor, the wax capacitor used for the Jose master volume mod on Ed's main Marshall. The Cerrem resistor came about from a Dutch guy posting here about what the Dutch amp tech saw in Ed's amp in the 90s and it's not relevant to early van halen. The Cerrem resistor might have even belonged to the Dutch amp tech and probably had nothing to do with Ed or Ed's amp. Ed can't help himself and throws in a bit of BS about the variac. I'm not in the running to be a EVH clone but the way Ed used his amps is interesting.

Wax Capacitor

Image
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Postby Dai on Tue Aug 19, 2008 8:15 am

ampdude wrote:Ed reamping in late 1977

Image


This photo is from 1977 right after Ed recorded Van Halen I.
Ed's main Marshall is on the floor with no logo. The black lead is going from the Echoplex to Ed's main Marshall. There is a grey lead running underneath Ed's main Marshall to the input of the Marshall stacked on top of it. That is reamping. The output of Ed's main Marshall fed into another Marshall and the Vox is done in the same way. The variac is for Ed's main Marshall. There is a Jose load box for all of the reamping but it's at the back and is not visible. Other guitarists like Tom Scholz and Allan Holdsworth were playing around with reamping in the 70s to get different sounds and master volume mods were happening in the 70s as well.



yes I've read all that from someone else, but could you describe what you can actually see and not what you think it is or what someone says it is. Again maybe it is a "reamp" setup, (and maybe my eyes are goin') but there is just not enough resolution in that pic to say for sure where the cables are connected. I mean what if he was just daisy chaining the inputs, for example? Does the picture show possible proof of a reamping setup? IMO yes, but definite? No (unless you can actually see where everything is going).
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Postby Baron Von Machinenmann on Tue Aug 19, 2008 10:14 am

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Postby ampdude on Tue Aug 19, 2008 10:45 am

Well you have Ed saying in the early interviews he uses 2 amps and you have Mark Cameron saying Ed reamped in the early days and you have a photo that looks like reamping and you have Ed in platform shoes. What more could you want :D.
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Postby Grendyll on Tue Aug 19, 2008 10:49 am

Baron Von Machinenmann wrote::sleepy:



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Postby Dai on Tue Aug 19, 2008 11:58 am

so does this mean you can't describe where the cables are going? Pretty simple question really.

ampdude wrote:Well you have Ed saying in the early interviews he uses 2 amps and you have Mark Cameron saying Ed reamped in the early days and you have a photo that looks like reamping and you have Ed in platform shoes. What more could you want :D.


yes but he doesn't say exactly how he used them. Also says he used backup setups which sounds reasonable for a gigging prof. musician. Maybe the other amps were backup amps. Anyway mainly I'm just trying to suggest that maybe a little more scrunity is in order with things like this. More Sherlock Holmes and a little less Biily Graham. Such as the "proof of reamping" picture where you can't see where the cables are going (doesn't disprove it but doesn't prove it either). There are other things--inconsistencies, mis-perceptions if you look at all the material out there. I don't really care that much about the "brown sound" as I used to.
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Postby ampdude on Tue Aug 19, 2008 1:22 pm

Image


The 1977 photo isn't definite proof but it looks like he is reamping. Daisy chaining and all that stuff won't get the sort of gain or tone on VH1. Hendrix was daisy chaining http://twtd.bluemountains.net.au/cream/dualstacks.htm . Ed did daisy chain live as in the Japan tour photos and sometimes he would also reamp with daisy chaining but that's for live volume and for VH1 it's just reamping. In the 1977 photo the bottom amp and the top amp are connected by leads but we havn't got a back shot.
If any amp was a backup it would be the Vox. For VH1 tone and gain you need a cumulative power tube gain setup. The 70s standard setups like a distortion pedal into a Plexi or just straight into a dimed Plexi gets the standard rock guitar tone we all know from the early 70s (which I personally favour) and when VH1 came out a lot of people wondered how he could get that high gain sound without buzzing out with pedal distortion. Ed didn't think much of the VH1 tone (and I'm not a great fan of it either) but it is a distinctive tone and he lost it when he abandoned reamping as you can see in the VHII studio shots but he went back to reamping later using the H&H power amps but that's a different tone.

There must be a reason why VH1 was distinctive and he must have been doing something that hardly anyone else was doing in the 70s ie reamping. At the end of the day you just have to try it yourself. I've heard reamping with Plexis and if anything comes close to the VH1 tone, reamping does but you have to do it with similar amps and guitars to what Ed used in 1977 and also use Ed's effects and add some reverb once it's recorded and then the tone is real close.
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Postby Dai on Tue Aug 19, 2008 4:07 pm

ampdude wrote:Image


The 1977 photo isn't definite proof but it looks like he is reamping. Daisy chaining and all that stuff won't get the sort of gain or tone on VH1. Hendrix was daisy chaining http://twtd.bluemountains.net.au/cream/dualstacks.htm . Ed did daisy chain live as in the Japan tour photos and sometimes he would also reamp with daisy chaining but that's for live volume and for VH1 it's just reamping. In the 1977 photo the bottom amp and the top amp are connected by leads but we havn't got a back shot. If Ed was daisy chaining there would be a lead from the bottom no logo Marshall input directly into the input of the top Marshall and there is no lead so what is he doing, the output of the bottom Marshall seems to go into the input of the top Marshall via a lead running underneath the bottom Marshall ie reamping.


this just seems like a big soup of fact, supposition, and conjecture all bungled together.


If any amp was a backup it would be the Vox. For VH1 tone and gain you need a cumulative power tube gain setup. The 70s standard setups like a distortion pedal into a Plexi or just straight into a dimed Plexi gets the standard rock guitar tone we all know from the early 70s (which I personally favour) and when VH1 came out a lot of people wondered how he could get that high gain sound without buzzing out with pedal distortion. Ed didn't think much of the VH1 tone (and I'm not a great fan of it either) but it is a distinctive tone and he lost it when he abandoned reamping as you can see in the VHII studio shots but he went back to reamping later using the H&H power amps but that's a different tone.


More of the same. "Cumulative power tube gain setup"? Have you messed with a Marshall circuits? The later lead circuit can get pretty good gain as is. If he did in fact have the extra cathode bypass (I tend to belive this was true), then he would have a bit more.

when VH1 came out a lot of people wondered how he could get that high gain sound without buzzing out with pedal distortion


are you absolutely sure his sound was completely unique? IIRC there was some stuff that sounded similar by Snuffy Walden (and Montrose??) apparently in part due to the same engineer.

but he went back to reamping later using the H&H power amps


you sure this was a "reamp" setup? Wasn't it straight sound in the middle cab, then two effected cabs?


There must be a reason why VH1 was distinctive and he must have been doing something that hardly anyone else was doing in the 70s ie reamping. At the end of the day you just have to try it yourself. I've heard reamping with Plexis and if anything comes close to the VH1 tone, reamping does but you have to do it with similar amps and guitars to what Ed used in 1977 and also use Ed's effects and add some reverb once it's recorded and then the tone is real close.


funny, echoes of Ted B. lol. (a guy who used to post who said the same thing). Deja vu all over again. Okay possibly some super unique thing that can't be had any other way, but there have been guys who sounded pretty similar without the elaborate setup as well as reports of Ed himself playing just with a Marshall still sounding like him.
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