Brown Super Qs ...

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Re: Brown Super Qs ...

Postby Tube Rube on Sun Feb 21, 2016 6:19 pm

Dean Jr. wrote:The tone caps appear to be of original values. so do the plate resistors.


Not seeing any 100k plate loads on the preamps after blowing up the pic and nearly going blind i still can't make out the present values.....

Ripe for modding? I would put it all back to stock. Big fan and owner of brown supers, wish iId know back in the day I'd have stashed a dozen of them!
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Re: Brown Super Qs ...

Postby TheGuitarFairy on Sun Feb 21, 2016 7:39 pm

tube rube,

thank you for digging in. just tell me what more you need in terms of pics and i'd b happy to take some others.

best,
mike
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Re: Brown Super Qs ...

Postby slider313 on Sun Feb 21, 2016 8:23 pm

I have a 1960 Super and tried a pair of golds in it. These, IMHO, are not the speakers for this amp. I've tried the ceramic greenback 10's, which were a little better. My re-coned 1961 P10Q's just sound "right" in the amp. I had Weber do them with their 10A125 cone and 30 watt voice coil. I think you'll be happy with the 10A125's. The output transformer may have an affect but try the speakers first. I've replaced a couple output transformers on blackface Bandmasters with Magnetic Components Corp. "Classic Tone" units, with great results.
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Re: Brown Super Qs ...

Postby TheGuitarFairy on Mon Feb 22, 2016 2:58 am

thank you slider ...

don't you <kinda'> find that a good amp always sounds like a good amp? regardless of speaker? i'd love to put webers in when they arrive and hear a huge improvement ... my instincts tell me it'll probably be more of a lateral improvement, if any. i am hoping tho!

i do prefer alnico to ceramic, generally. i have had a 10f-something in my PR and currently have some ceramic jensens from 60s in a twin twelve silvertone ... very punchy and loud as all get out. i find the golds to be very sweet and reedy ... and they sound nice even when your not pushing the amp/speakers hard. they record really nice in the studio, too.

i have a 12a125 in an early 50s danelectro maestro (2x6l6s, all octal) that just sound incredible.

best,
m
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Re: Brown Super Qs ...

Postby drewleslie on Tue Feb 23, 2016 1:18 pm

I like british voiced speakers in tweeds but jensen and weber clones in brown/blackface era amps. I think the golds are a more efficient speaker than the 10A125's ... sometime I wonder if that is what folks focus on more than tone (?).

I restored a 1960 bandmster (restored as a 3X10 combo) and later 1960 super ... both had 70's bandmaster OT's. I picked up MercMagnetics brown super OT clones for both. Noticeable improvement to me. I understand that Magnetic Components trannies are comparable.

drew
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Re: Brown Super Qs ...

Postby spidey66 on Wed Feb 24, 2016 12:16 pm

I've had 5 brown Supers over the years: 1 1960 CV, 2 1960 5G4s, and 2 1962 6G4As. My faves are the 5G4s. I find the later ones a bit too loud and bright/tight for my tastes. As for speakers I am running a pair of 1959 P10Q's in the my '60 5G4. I put the stock P10rs away for safe keeping and lurked on the 'bay for about a year looking for a pair of teal Q's with the correct date code. You could try a pair of Jensens (organ pulls) and you might find the volume and tone is where you want it to be. As for the tranny...I think 75% of the magic in a brown Super is the 45216 tranny. Just my 2 cents. Good Luck!
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Re: Brown Super Qs ...

Postby slider313 on Thu Feb 25, 2016 10:24 pm

drewleslie wrote:I like british voiced speakers in tweeds but jensen and weber clones in brown/blackface era amps. I think the golds are a more efficient speaker than the 10A125's ... sometime I wonder if that is what folks focus on more than tone (?).


I'm the complete opposite! I like British voiced speakers in blackface amps and Jensen type alnico's in tweed and brown Fenders. I installed a WGS G15A in my '61 brown Pro and it's, IMHO, the best sounding 15" guitar speaker I've heard.

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Re: Brown Super Qs ...

Postby Mitch Roberts on Fri Feb 26, 2016 12:43 pm

Looks like a fair amount of "updating" going on in your circuit. Personally, I would return all the resistors to carbon comps on the main board, ditch the orange drops for more period correct film and foil caps, or ceramic caps if that's what the original had in any given position. Double check the values in the phase inverter circuit, especially the cap that bridges the entire tone of the preamp into the phase inverter (leading into pin 2 of the last 12AX7 before the power tubes). That should be a .001uf, and for some reason people will up the value to like a .01uf. That will make the amp too bass heavy. Maybe the most critical cap in the amp, tone-wise.

Also, I don't see a bias pot anywhere - you need one. No, the originals didn't have them, but you really need to dial the bias in for best amp performance, especially when playing out at band volume.

These are wonderful amps. I have owned 3 and worked on a couple more for friends. I always liked the Weber alnico Jensen clones in mine, but that is a personal taste.

Maybe you need to just invest in a good, experienced tech to help you optimize the amp? :dunno:
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Re: Brown Super Qs ...

Postby TheGuitarFairy on Mon Feb 29, 2016 9:59 pm

hi friends,

really appreciate the help! 10a125s came and i only put one in. so currently there's one gold and one 10a125 in there.

back and forth, side by side comparisons reveals that theres actually more in common between these two speakers than different. <neither> is broken in, so theres that but basically, to my ears: gold is louder, brighter and maybe a little more scooped? weber is flatter. i like them both and will live w/ the amp this way for awhile ... mebbe go all weber eventually ... all gold ... etc etc. theyre both obviously fine speakers.

a 6l6 fell out immediately before a gig. i <thought> i felt its key when i put it back in. apparently not cause i took out a screen grid resistor. doh! an hour and 1st set missed, later - i was back in action w a different amp.

rather than just change resistor myself i brought to my tech. he's putting in a bias pot, gonna fix intermittent vibrato and will be going through amp checking usual stuff and also checking C/R values against schematic.

i'll live w amp for awhile when it returns ... if need be i'll look into a more Triad-centric OT and/or other options.

thank you again all!
mike
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Re: Brown Super Qs ...

Postby TheGuitarFairy on Sat Mar 12, 2016 10:23 pm

hi friends, long time ... ok an update.

"issue" if you want to call it that, was high b+

i've been doing a lot of experimentation w/ different rectifier tubes ... more i dropped b+ better amp was sounding. even did a few gigs w/ a 5y3 in there. sounded nice ...

where i'm at now w/ amp:
- nos tung-sol 5881s in there. (a/b'd awhile w a pair of rca 6L6s ... personally i preferred 5881s)
- 5v4 rectifier
- two 10a125s

i'll gig w amp awhile this way. rca 6L6s sounded big and bold ... i feel like i can get there w 5881s, just at a lower volume. when 5881s are pushed its just gorgeous in a way the rca's weren't doing. really creamy.

thanks again for help. more later?
mike
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Great Live Sound Brown Super Amp

Postby Factory Guy on Fri May 06, 2016 9:09 pm

Hi,

I'm a fellow (1960 5G4) Super Amp owner and play for fun, however I am a professional live/tour sound engineer. That's what I've been paid to do for decades, I'm also 51. I also worked for a company that made tube guitar amps for a while.

IF you leave your amps controls the same as you have them in your basement studio when you take your amp out to gig, the amp puts out EXACTLY the same sound as when it is in your basement, unless there is drastic difference in the AC power at your gigs. The difference YOU HEAR is the ENVIRONMENT your amp is in, reflections or lack of, from walls and other surfaces and how you place your amp. If it is placed "the same" in relation to you and the controls are set the same the amp really does put out the same sound.

If you tweak your volume/tone and place the amp differently on stage at your gigs then yes the amp puts out different sound.

Get the tone you like in your basement, leave the knobs set where they are, take it to your gigs, put the amp in as close to the same "position" to you as you use in your basement.

Now stick a good mic in front of your amp and work with the sound guy to make sure the sound you like in your basement is coming out of the PA and your monitor if needed.

FWIW a Shure SM-57 will not do justice to a great sounding amp in most live situations. Some of my favorite guitar amp mics are the AKG C-414 or a Neumann TLM-103, or even a KM-184. Even with a "bar band" PA a good mic in front of your amp will sound significantly better than an SM-57 or other $100-$200 dynamic mic.

Ask any of your studio recording buddies to try out everything you can borrow. Your guitar amp puts out a lot of tone that you CAN'T capture with an SM-57 "on the grill", especially a multi-speaker amp. However a really good mic placed 8"-12" away from your amp grill can get stellar guitar tone into the PA without catching as much off-axis stage sounds as a dynamic cardiod mic like an SM-57. That's assuming you're amp is at, say to be usable volume with live drums, in a gig situation. The whole speaker(s) put out sound/tone, you can't capture close micing. You can also place a 2nd mic behind your amp if you want to get even more "creative" ALA Jimmy Page.

After you've found a good mic that sounds best with your amp buy one and take it with you to use for your gigs, your guitar tone will thank you for it!

TheGuitarFairy wrote:howdy friends,

I've read some incredibly informative and thoughtful posts here re- brown supers and was hoping you guys could help me out.

i recently picked up this 6G4A super ... i'm a big Q / Big Al fan so i'm pretty psyched : )

as you can see in pics amp has has many Cs and Rs replaced. OT has been replaced w/ a NSC022848 REV A 238-9526 (New Sensor Corp/Schumacher 4-ohm 35W Pro OT). I put a pair of Celestion Golds in the thing but am also waiting on a pair of 10a125s.

just for some background i'm 51 (today actually) and gig a lot, as in 15-25 nights per mo. downstairs in studio, amp sounds very sweet and reedy ... on the bandstand however amp sounds hollow, boomy, punchy and loud as F (my ears are junque, as i type this morning). this is in either channel (i prefer "normal") and always w/ bass OFF.

where should i be looking to remedy this situation? i've read where tone stacks were all over the map? what about putting more of a direct copy of Triad or Schumacher 45216 OT in there? bias? obviously i'm hoping 10a125s will sound better to me.

any suggestions/observations would be greatly appreciated!

thank you and bestest regards,
mike
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